This is a story of the last 3 years and my personal & business struggle to make online notarization legal with SignNow. It includes death threats, cease and desist letters, and even our Hacker News thread being killed (I like to think it is too disruptive).
It all started about 3 years ago. I had just left West Point, then the Army, and was trying to figure out what I wanted to be when I grew up. I was something of a hacker in High School, and a tech geek, so I ended up helping companies set up their document management platforms. Technically the implementations were straightforward, but it allowed me to work firsthand with a variety of people managing contracts and contract signings on a daily basis.
One on my clients (I’ll leave their name out of this) ended up getting hit by notary fraud…badly. Of a $300M fund, they lost $5M in write offs due to fraudulent notarizations. These came in all shapes and sizes, but generally were because a party was trying to avoid having someone see a document.
I was stunned at the effect, and went out to dinner with a colleague and friend to talk it over. This was our spark of an idea: Notarization is really painful and it is really almost laughable as a fraud prevention tool today, but what if it were online? We knew we could leverage technology to more accurately identify people, record video of them signing, and use all of this to create a “near bulletproof” contract in a court of law. At least very accurately answer the question “Who signed this?”
It was Feb 2010, and we sought out to solve this problem. We built a prototype. I read every state law in detail, and created a huge matrix to analyze the state laws to see if it were even permissible. To our elation, it seemed that it wasn’t illegal in about 10 states. There was no reason whatsoever in the law that you couldn’t do it this way, it just had never been done before. So we took 3 of the states, took them to a top attorney in the digital signature space and said “Do you agree it’s legal in these states? If so, which one do you think is the best target?” They agreed that it appeared legal in all states, and they selected New Jersey as the most viable option.
It was 1 year in. We launched a pilot program. The notary community exploded. Now if you are a notary, don’t take offense, but I have yet to meet a notary who is really well versed in notary and electronic signature law. Most of the time they didn’t bother to look at what we are doing anyway. This didn’t stop them from making every claim in the book, and reporting us to every state office. Many of them lied. We got a cease and desist letter from the State Of California, which said that we were to stop telling California notaries that they could notarize online. California notaries notarize online? We never said that. We called the state and asked how they heard about this. They said “from notaries”. We explained the situation, told them what we are doing, and they withdrew their complaint, making it clear that we were not violating any known law at the time. It’s interesting how easy it was for competitors to get the state to issue a cease and desist without any evidence.
We started getting some people testing out our pilot program, it went well. By luck & timing, there was a group in Virginia simultaneously trying to get online notarization passed there. We started discussing things with their group, and by the spring online notarization was made legal in the state of Virginia. The notary associations violently opposed the bill. They tended to use the argument that “Online notarization is not perfect, so we shouldn’t allow it”, or the so called Nirvana Fallacy. They disregarded the terrible track record of paper notarizations, including the Robosigning scandal of 2010. Most are for-profit entities with a non-profit shell. They make their money from training, equipment, and insurance, so it’s no surprise they want the most complicated legal/regulatory notary structure imaginable and millions of notaries. The only concession the associations got was to delay the enactment of the bill until July 1, 2012.
The State of Virginia knew that this would be a economic driver for the state, and sought to be to notarization what Delaware is to corporations. They built a solid framework to support this. Even the National Association of Secretaries of State admits freely that electronic and out-of-state notarizations are legal in all 50 states. So here it was, exactly what we wanted to achieve. Completely legal online notarization throughout the country. Sure, people could modify their laws to disallow it, but why would they? Banks and consumer groups both supported the bill. Nobody wins in the existing system except for notaries.
Here is the text of the law. While it is not bulletproof, it is massively better at preventing fraud than the existing system.
Getting what we sought (explicit legal permission), we shut down the pilot and waited. We were surprised when a few other states, including New Jersey, issued “warnings” against online notarization. Whenever we talked with the state, the story was the same. They got complaints from notaries (our competition), so they put up something. No consumer was negatively affected. Sometimes when we pointed out there was no evidence to support the warning, they took them down, but sometimes they didn’t. California is an interesting case study. They agreed it was likely inaccurate, but stated that it was not their policy to take down consumer notices once issued. So it stays.
My co-founder even got a death threat from a notary, and we had to begin carefully screening calls and making sure that our notaries were safe from harm.
We achieved a remarkable amount in that first year, and began focusing on building a company that would match our huge vision. We looked at the signature market and saw a few trends. One, the money didn’t seem to be as good there as the things surrounding it. Two, nobody had made a serious go at an entirely free signing product, mobile focused, and designed for simplicity. We started SignNow with the vision to make it easy to make and enforce agreements.
We raised money from amazing investors, Khosla Ventures, built the team and launched mobile signing apps in early 2012. They instantly rose to the top of the mobile signing apps. We began work on a new version of the notary product to be ready for the July 1 launch.
As we worked our way through the technical milestones, we began communicating with the state. The state of Virginia was fantastic, enthusiastic, and supportive. They feel like they are in startup mode too, which is fun. They threw a few curve balls at us, but we were able to make it through.
July 2, 2012. Over 2.5 years since we first came up with the idea we quietly launched the service. The first, fully legal, online notary service. Notary associations immediately attempted to defraud the system and trip up our notaries. The notary community exploded again. No surprise there, just business as usual. I always thought we would have the support of the tech community.
Someone submitted us to Hacker News, YCombinator’s news aggregator, while we got some good comments and some concerns about the legality. No surprise there. Some people thought it didn’t seem worth the price, but they probably weren’t thinking about the anti-fraud protection (not just the convenience). Then, the link went dead and we got a message from Paul Graham himself.
“I killed your post, which appears to be a false claim as far as I can tell:
http://www.sos.ca.gov/business/notary/customer-alert.htm”
My jaw dropped. This seems like a weird reaction. Airbnb and Uber have faced similar legal challenges and the tech community rallied around them. This notice also happens to be very out of date. All it really says, in a very poorly written way, is that California notaries cannot notarize online, which is true, but it shouldn’t affect us. I’m sure Paul just saw the link and killed it without much thought (he is a busy guy), and we’ll get him on board :)
True disruption is not just hard, it’s long and lonely. We have been determinedly attempting to end notary fraud. It has been a crazy uphill battle run by very few people. In a few years we’ve managed to change the landscape forever, but we are in a delicate spot. If the tech community cannot back innovation, then this is doomed to fail. So help us out, tell your friends, let’s make going to find a notary a thing of the past.
CEO & Co-Founder, SignNow
Asshole!
I certainly understand you might be concerned as a notary, but let me know any concerns and I’ll be happy to address them. We are coming up with tools that will help notaries conduct more secure, paperless, transactions, and drive more business to you. We see an opportunity to dramatically expand the market, which should be a good thing for all notaries.
Chris,
Great job! Thank you for making this work. As I live abroad and still handle some business in the US, the local US Embassy charges me US $50 per signature they notorize, taxi fare etc!! Plus I need to take an hour travel (to and from), wait in line etc. This really helps make life easier and saves me money. Great product.
You should really just delete this guy. Ban him too. Worthless comment. Doesn’t add anything useful to any discussion.
I say leave it up…people can then see what a donkey this guy is. Chris is doing great things…let the haters hate, I love this service!
Disruption is painful to the incubents. I say Bravo. If banking and investing can be done online why not notary. Next you could bring real estate closing online.
Keep going, Yes, having a disruptive innovation is hard work and many out there will try to stop you barbecue you are them to change. Stay firm in your resolve and focus. You’ll make it, don’t give up!
Marlene
Motivateus.com
Thank you for taking on an archaic safeguard in our society. I’m amazed it has taken the long! You guys are awesome and on the right track. Just shared your article on my facebook wall.
Ps I’ve been using signnow for wedding contracts the past 6 or 7 weddings and it’s changed my life! I hate printing and mailing
Excellent post! You have just made SignNow my first choice for any online signing. Thanks for sharing your struggles in such a personal, objective way.
Where I see your intentions are good, I strongly disagree as to online notarization as being a solution.
I am curious why? We use multi-factor identity verification, video recording, and detailed audit logs of everything that occurs. Many states don’t even require a pen-and-paper notary to keep a journal, which makes it very hard to provide any substantive proof of who signed or what they signed.
I’m really excited to see this concept made real.
Based on comments at Hacker News, multi-factor (non-wallet) authentication is used to identify the parties. This method of ID verification is a technique that I helped pioneer at Equifax many years ago, and I’ve been disappointed that it hasn’t ever really seemed to take off before. I occasionally see it in use here and there, but now really expect it to be recognized for its value. Not perfect for every case, but a useful tool nonetheless. (BTW and of curiosity, are you using Equifax services?)
I will happily make use of your service as needs arise!
Cheers and way to go!
I can see why people would be hesitant about an online notarization. People I know were hesitant about online signatures as well. There is something about real live contact with real live physically present human beings!
Having said that, ignore the trouble makers. Focus on persuading the people who just have natural fears and doubts.
Jealous, nasty people don’t add much to the conversation.
P.S. I like SignNow for it’s simplicity. I’m still waiting for future features and to see what you decide to charge for them. We basically do not need enough signatures in our organization to justify spending $14.99 per month like other services, but we need more than “5 transactions” per month like with Echosign.
I have great hopes for SignNow.
:-)
Thanks, good feedback. We plan to charge for things like notarization, and keep signing free.
You say “Notary associations immediately attempted to defraud the system..”.
If it’s true, can you get some criminal convictions out of this, to draw a strict line of what’s not acceptable in competition?
Probably not worth it. Just beat them at their own game. But all options are on the table.
How?
Giulio Marini
Notary Public – Scotland
Great job! Keep up the awesome work! Here’s a few Seth Godin blog posts that I found inspiring:
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/02/perfect-and-impossible.html
http://sethgodin.typepad.com/seths_blog/2012/07/happy-birthday-mr-tesla.html
saw this in email, thought id read with out really knowing what it is. after reading it i say well done. i hate seeing how backwards some industries want to be usually for selfish reasons.
eventually people will not even remember there was an issue with it.
Hello,
I am a notary in state of MA. Well I actually co-own a real estate office and obtained Notary license just for convenience. Moreover, I love entrepreneurship and I think this is a great idea (I also came out with idea to sign contracts electronically when I was running around trying to get my clients to sign P&S… well you beat me on that :) No hard feelings though lol. I only have one comment:
1. Can I use your tool to provide notary services for others? or is it only your Notaries? In that case I can understand why the Notary community is fighting back… you are taking their bread… but if you provide this a service to them – that would do nothing but good! I mean – I am in! Given MASS allows this (would be kind to let me know if Mass allows this type of notary).
Either way – good luck! I believe in healthy friction – makes you work harder!
Cheers
Arthur
Yes, we are working on some tools to help notaries close business easily and electronically. Right now, only Virginia is supporting the remote, online notary, but we are hoping to port our iPad app to enable notaries who sign physically with a person to do so electronically. Stay tuned. I appreciate the candid comments.
Best idea I’ve seen in a long time. Everything that can be digital will be digital. Count me in.
You’ve got my support!
Some people are just stuck on the past and/or afraid of change. Gotta get over it! some printing stores went out of business when home printers became available along side computers, yet we still need some of them to remain open. So even though Online Notary has surfaced, some Notary services are still needed…”Gotta go with the times!” isn’t that the saying? Chris, Congratulations on your achievements.
It’s about time.
Finding a notary is a pain.
You’re a gentleman and a scholar.
<3
Please charge a flat rate individually per transaction … Monthly fees are the Bain of most people’s existence.
Hi Anoura, right now it is a per notarization charge. We are considering a couple different pricing options in the future. Thanks for the feedback!
I’m a real estate investor who is spending the summer abroad (in Panama). I’ve had idiotic title company reps telling me that my Panamanian notary is “unacceptable” and just to “pop down to the US Embassy” referring to it as if it’s a 7-11 just down the street.
I’m going to test out your service next week, and can’t wait to report back to you about how great it works.
This is pure genius, and kudos to you for thinking of the idea and making it happen.
I will report back to you and let you know how my experience is!
THANK YOU!
Justin Lee
Real Estate Investor
(living in Panama)
I\’m a real estate investor who is spending the summer abroad (in Panama). I\’ve had idiotic title company reps telling me that my Panamanian notary is \”unacceptable\” and just to \”pop down to the US Embassy\” referring to it as if it\’s a 7-11 just down the street.
I\’m going to test out your service next week, and can\’t wait to report back to you about how great it works.
This is pure genius, and kudos to you for thinking of the idea and making it happen.
I will report back to you and let you know how my experience is!
THANK YOU!
Justin Lee
Real Estate Investor
(living in Panama)
Great! If you have any issues at all I am actively trying to help people get things accepted. Our lawyers are working up packets for different states to help people who aren’t familiar with the latest laws get up to speed fast.
Hey Chris,
I think that I’m going to need your team’s help here. The hacks at Ticor Title in San Diego are rejecting my document.
I’ve already had problems with these fools telling me that my Panamanian Notary wasn’t good enough on a previous real estate transaction: http://reimarketingtips.com/blog/1175/challenge-with-investing-from-abroad-the-notary/
Now I get this garbage.
Any chance you can help me out? I’ve already emailed some stuff to Taylor M and Casey A on your team.
This deal is supposed to close on Tuesday, July 31st. I hope you can help us on this.
Thanks so much,
Justin Lee